The 24/7 global primary school - Noam Gerstein (bina School)
Noam Gerstein - CEO the bina school
Segment: K-6 / primary school
Business model: B2C
Location: Berlin, Germany
bina is a fully online primary transnational school for kids aged 4-12. Noam founded, bootstrapped and exited a business at 26. Then did more than 7+ years of global K-6 research that culminated in the bina school.
The full transcript of the podcast can be found below for those who prefer reading rather than listening. The podcast is hosted by Frank Albert Coates.
Episode summary
bina School's unique approach: The school offers a global, tech-based education with small class sizes, focusing on environmental, cultural, and socio-emotional learning, primarily for non-native English speakers. Online schooling can allocate resources more efficiently, focusing more on teaching time rather than infrastructure and enabling small class sizes without geographical constraints.
A school is not built overnight: Noam highlights the complexity and dedication required to establish a school, highlighting the long-term commitment and the necessity of making careful deliberate adjustments.
Challenges as a founder: Getting funding as a solo female founder without having white males in the team (!), the importance of good hiring and the pain when product issues occur.
Advice for EdTech Founders: Noam advises founders to only pursue entrepreneurship if necessary, solve real problems, work with people they enjoy, and listen closely to customers and stakeholders.
Transcript of interview
FC: So let's dive into it. If you can just start for us and the listeners to give us a quick 30s elevator pitch about the business school.
NG: Yeah, for sure. So, Bina is a global, mobile, whole primary experience that fits families everywhere. We create quality, educational outcomes and joy at scale. So what we're doing is, we fully educate kids aged 4 to 12, digitally and cross geographically. We're shaping new ways to educate GenA through pioneering what we call precision education.
Basically we offer small classes of up to seven students led by top tier teachers. The tech-based methodology and curriculum emphasize, environmental, cultural and social emotional learning. Our students, primarily non-native English speakers, but we have some of both. Kind of exceed the UK and US national averages ranking in the top eight percentile academically after just one year with us.
We're pre-seed, but post revenue startup. We have super wonderful people backing us up. We're been incredibly lucky that way. And we have, phenomenal advisors, including like the UK's former Minister of Education, Jim Knight and Jamie, who's just a marvel and other delights. Yeah, that's, that's what we do.
FC: Brilliant. Thank you for that. Lots to grab a hold of and talk about. But before that tell us why Bina and why did you move into education in the first place?
NG: So I can, I can tell you like a two minute story. I'm a jerusalemite originally. I, Ton University really, really early. And worked with positions for human rights, and did that for a while, which was wonderful and horrifying.
We worked a little bit with detainees and prisoners and worked in an open clinic, kind of no patients asked, no bills delivered. We'll take care of you no matter what. I was part of the team that opened it and did some philanthropic fundraising for it and kind of worked daily in the clinic.
Lived in London for a little bit, connected to Israel, opened the first business. Sold it, and, found myself surprised, and with kind of a notion of privilege in two ways.
One, I lived comfortably in a young age. That's a huge privilege in the world. And the second; I can build things, or let's say more I can convince people to do things together. That's a huge privilege. And I think like every privilege, it's a responsibility. They don't come separately, these two.
And so I thought the next thing I wanna build is definitely something that people absolutely need, because people can do the rest, it's fine. I do think that like serious entrepreneurship these days really needs to tackle the problems that we have because we don't lack them.
And I'm not talking about small consumer problems of discomfort. And then I have fascination with business models and huge industries. And I thought, I think that
the corners of society, that innovation is most needed and possible are the ones that when you look at the business models, you kind of go. Wait, what? Why? Right. And I think schooling is a really, really interesting one. It's a unique niche within the ed space, just in terms of both like the size of the market and the amount of money that is poured into it, and also kind of the, yeah, the kind of the economic component of it, which I think is very different than when we start looking at, let's say field specific solutions. So got really interested in that. Then spent six years living nomadically, sitting in schools and, luckily interviewing little humans and their adults to see what works for them and what doesn't and why.
And the aim was also try and understand more about the differences and the similarities between the systems globally. And to think about maybe if we could potentially build a system upgrade, given schooling is shockingly similar actually in most places in the world. But what we imagine as a school, when we say that word in different languages is relatively similar, which is shocking and amazing because there are not a lot of systems that are so, I mean, of course there are modifications and alterations and people took it differently. Yes. But, the basics are similar and it's because it was an incredibly effective way to move humanity from literacy to illiteracy. And that's like amazing systemic design. We love that. But it was built for a very specific set of resources and needs, and we have a very different set of resources and needs right now.
And so how can we kind of craft something that looks at again, like a system that fits cross geographically that utilizes the need, like utilizes the resources for the needs of society and young families today.
FC: Absolutely. And I guess the question then is, okay, so why this format? So you're talking about the traditional system and giving it the systems upgrade. So most kids in the world, they go to a physical school, right? And then came covid. Okay. They had to change to virtual, but why an online only school and like, what's the advantages and I guess disadvantages of that?
NG: Conceiving the idea of a cross geographical daily life for little humans and educators and families came before Covid. And also like online schools, like the old school of online schools have been around for almost 30 years by now. So it's not nothing particularly new there.
If we consider very high quality at scale. It is absolutely impossible to do in any other way. And this is before I even start talking about the things that we're starting to be able to do right now, which is creating unfathomable worlds for learning. There are just a lot of things you absolutely can not do in a physical space. For example, when we teach digitally, we can create assessment that is not periodic, but is on a continuum. So every time we play, we understand in a deep manner what people know, what they can do, and to which depth. And that's all the people within the system, both the students, the educators, families. And then we can craft on a real time valuable and quick pace how to help them, how to support them, and what would be the most fitting. We can look at beyond right, wrong, and how long, which in traditional schools, you know, we can have a finger in the wind for. We can look at finger rhythms, concentration skills and other things.
And then obviously there are like aspects of management. And most moving to me at least, is resource allocation. So basically traditional schools, like the biggest, the two biggest buckets of resources are like real estate and infrastructure, right? Tables, chairs, buildings, and teachers time. We come and say, okay, we are not spending money on infrastructure. Amazing. Because infrastructure exists and I mean, again, like I don't really understand anything about teenagers and I'm not gonna assume that. So I'm literally only talking about the soft little people before they hit puberty. And then the, the, their emotional needs require like calmer environments that are warmer and smaller, not like half day jails of 2000 people.
We have enough understanding of why this is problematic, by now. So a, we can, we can avoid those costs and craft intimate physical environments. So that's awesome. But not only intimate physical environments, we can keep classrooms and groups incredibly small. And that's a big aspect of high quality learning. And we can do that at scale, and that's definitely not available at scale right now.
So basically the second big bucket is teacher's time. And on average an educator spends 32% of their time with students and the rest of their time doing stuff. All kinds of stuff like taking gum out of their hair and marking grades and building unit plans and sitting in meetings and walking in halls and just stuff. My educators spend the vast majority of their time with students, which allows us to keep classes with seven kids or less and still have a very viable business model. That's unique and amazing.
And obviously like we think about creating learning on a continuum. But we can do things that are learning on a continuum, not only for the kids. And that's the last very, very exciting thing. Let's say I'm an educator and I'm doing what I'm doing right now, which is talking for 10 minutes straight. So no one should be allowed to do that under no circumstances ever, never, right? If they're talking to humans, please know, don't do it.
If they're talking to trees, I assume the trees feel the same, by the way. So the system can come and say, hey, how about the next activity? Right? Like, just make sure that everyone's awake. So we can actually start implementing, and that's kind of bridging the huge gap between what we have and like learning sciences and what we see in classrooms and kind of bridging that gap in a very active, proactive way. And we knew that according to latest research on the continuum. So those are the things, some of the things. And then again, like if we're talking about an elephant, it should walk in the room. And, and that's possible now.
The last really cool, really small for an incredibly divided world. When kids go to a local school, they meet their local peers, and the educators that are available to them are the ones that are in their neighborhood, more or less. In Bina, children can learn with children from the very north to the very south of their time zone.
They are matched according to their needs, not according to their location. Also to their educators by the way. And then we see wonders like two kids from very different sides of the aisle or of the wall or of the war learning together every day and becoming best friends. And that's marvelous.
FC: So what's sort of the audience you're targeting? And I would say like maybe the geo focus then as well.
NG: So let's start with this. The easy, I mean, they're both kind easy, so. We now have Euro African classes. What we call the Eastern time zone. So basically from the very north of Eastern Canada, throughout South America because you know, most of South America is on the east timezone. We are opening PT like the West Americas, in Q3 and East Asia in Q4. So that's exciting. But that's kind of the geos. The aim is to have eventually classes running 24/ 7 so families can join us whenever. Wherever they are and that we actually move with them if they're moving.
Which brings me to the second point. We see, well, we expected to see early adopters of like three groups and we actually see four where the fourth group is surprising and really cool.
So the first three are. One, we call them multi culties. So we have families that they're life setting involves more than one culture. So either the adults in the family are from different cultures or they are from, originate from one culture and live in another area. We see the range from global trotters to refugees and everything in between.
So people that move very frequently or very, or not very frequently, like every two years even, and what they seek is stable international schooling, and usually they can get either or. That's the first group. The second group are people that live in what we call educational deserts. For example, for like all the, all for real examples from the school from this morning.
We live in Canada, rurally and like the wonders of the snow and the three hours away from the next school. We live on a boat. We live where they don't educate girls. We live where there's only Jewish education around us and that's really awkward for us. So people that cannot, that they don't in their local offerings, there is no option for them. That kind of, sort of makes sense.
The third group is families that have unique situations, right? So for example, a grandma that is taking care of her grandchild and is not very mobile, cannot get him to school. Families that live in situations with extreme violence around them and are afraid to send their kids to school. That's very, very common especially these days. There are a lot of neurodiverse cases that we do just beautifully with, so for all the kids that, the idea of sitting for the entire day is not a great, is not too great for them. Like, we're here and we designed for that.
Those are the three groups that we expected and potentially the biggest group are just young parents. That's it. And they are looking at schools like really young millennials or the older Gen Zs with young kids right now looking at schools going like, I've been there, I've done that.
No. Like just No, no thank you. None of it. No, none. No piece of this experience is what I want for my baby. Like not the kicking anyone out of bed at 7:00 AM. Not the two and a half hours in traffic, not the half day jail, not the people screaming at my kids. Not the content, none of it. Like not for my baby. Under no circumstances. And that's common.
FC: Not a lot of institutions do like four year olds and primary, we really specialize in experiences for the little, little ones. And I think what's very unique about Bina is that we do like the accountability and the responsibility for their, the kids learn, like formal learning is on us.
NG: Like we are synchronous, we work together, we believe in groups. Kids are like engaged. All our families work. It's not at all the responsibility of the families to teach the kids. That's, that's our job. And that's a, that's a huge difference actually.
FC:
So let's, let's move on to more sort of some investor questions perhaps. Could you share any metrics or any financials, like how, how's the business going?
How easy is it to run a school, like an online school for these kids?
NG: We did a lot of testing and groundwork and it was very deliberate. So we wanted to make sure that we are accredited. Like the beta ran for over a year. And even towards the beta, we did some, like, when there was a year running up of like experiments and shorter classes. So it's actually like, I'm gonna give you the most non-bro answer, but basically like we are deliberately small,with some of the aspects of building because unlike, here's a cool game, why don't you try it?
Okay. It crashes. Nevermind. Because we offer like comprehensive education, like we cannot really morally do a very bad job, if you know what I mean. It's just not okay. So, you know, we, the idea of moving fast and breaking things as far as it apply, like applies to like our work. I would claim most work, but that's a different conversation.
You know, when when we move fast and break things, then everyone's broken and that's not a good idea.
NG: So we spend a long time beta. We actually really opened to like a growing stage in Q4 and obviously we are like nicely exploding right now, so that's cool.
I mean, we're taking in whatever we can and demand is super high, so that's exciting.
We are, we're at 30 MRR right now. We have a model that has for each two, for each, let's say three fully paying students, we have one student that's a student that's on some form of financial aid.
FC: Okay.
NG: So our average discount rate, is still dropping, but the aim is to actually maintain a chunk of it and make sure that we support families that really need our work.
FC: Okay. And how do you get that support for students who can't afford it?
NG: It's baked in the model that there are students that are at cost. Because while fundraising, I actually had quite a bit of suggestions from people to take nonprofit money, to support these kids.
But we're tiny. We're a startup. I don't have time to operate a nonprofit. That's not a thing. So I'm looking to collaborate with nonprofits that do that, that kind of do kind of channel that funding for those families. There are other really cool ways to do that. Like for example, in some states in Southern US the state funds, chips in, it's called for families. So there are different ways.
FC: Absolutely. And so, over a bit more to, you know, your success factors. So what's, what will make you succeed and what's your secret sauce for making it all work?
NG: Like, if I'm blunt, like I can't avoid being like, there are so many ways this could go wrong, like everything but this one in particular, 'cause it's very squishy. The crafting and weaving it in requires incredible amount of deliberation and carefulness. And that is in every aspect of what we do.
So like a bad hire is very bad. Okay. And like mistakes in the product are like painful. I have a very good friend that is building in similar spaces that when I was very worried about like, opening and he says, oh, come on, stop being such a female founder. It's horrible. Just, you know, just start. And I'm like, I don't know, but what if we don't do it? He's like, I'm looking at my children and they're literally eating sand right now. They're eating sand right now. Like,
FC: Get this started.
NG: Whatever you give them is gonna be better. Um, but still, like we want, we are crafting this highly tailored system, which has multiple faces to it. So making sure that the best people, best minds work on it. Making sure that like our educators are of the highest quality that we gain the right insights, that we learn, that we listen.
Obviously growing and understanding how to communicate ourselves and like how to build. A voice that's coherent and relevant and constantly evolving. How to build experiences that are amazing, right? Like you, like how do we make sure that they're in the world that we're talking about, right? And then how to make sure that, as you know, our generation was not, we were not educated to educate this way.
So like, how do we also think about what type of support network we provide for the support network. So like how do we make sure that like, families always understand what their kids are doing and always understand how to support them and feel emotionally supported and part of a global community.
So there are a lot of moving pieces there. I think, you know, success would be. End game, right? So to walk into a village in the middle of nowhere and that there are children there in multiple aged, in a grandma's hut or whatever, that are all recipients of like the world's best education. That's the dream, right?
FC: So you mentioned some challenges and what has been your biggest challenge since you started the company, and how did you solve it?
NG: Funding. Funding was hard.
FC: Hmm.
NG: Until, until recently, um, where it became less hard. Both because our numbers are just pretty and it's exciting. And as well as there are two white males sitting in the room, so everyone's calm. We had incredible luck and success with finding really phenomenal team members. For educators it's an amazing job, like, you know . Most people prefer not to have basketballs flying into their head and like, work from Bali and only teach 14 students. So that's really nice. And so the kind of the quality of educators that we've been getting is unbelievable.
FC: To the funding piece. So, okay. It was difficult, but like, what did you do to come over that gap. Dive a bit more into that because this is so typical for all the founders. Right? So you mentioned a couple of things.
NG: If you're a solo female founder, get boys in the room and make sure they're white.
FC: Wow. Wow.
That's a, that's a hard, hard, hard truth. Right.
NG: But like jokes aside, I mean, first of all, get your business in line. I think it's really important that, I mean, we can have goals and ideas and that's very nice. But we, you know, proof is in the pudding.
Proof is in the pudding. Like what are the educational metrics? Like what are your bank like, what are the numbers. Like what's level of satisfaction of your customers, of your team, of like of the students themselves? Like, like proof is in the pudding.
Like you have the difficulty of course is like when you start, you don't have anything. You have to make sure that you need to sell something you don't have. And so you can sell a dream that could be easier for some and harder for others. You can sell a team. And I think, and that's kind of it. And I think entrepreneurship that's strong has one or the other. So either you can, either you have a strong enough network or enough financial resources to put things off the ground on your own with whatever it takes, and then start when you have something to actually sell. You can start going around and shopping it. That's a one option. Or you like eat dirt for like four years. And hopefully you also have the, like, you, hopefully you have the ability to do both.
FC: Yeah. Yeah,
Yeah I think there are a lot of lies around like founding, you know, I just started from nothing. It's like, no, you didn't, you have a millionaire dad, like, whatcha talking about right?
Yeah.
NG: You know, people have store hero stories about entrepreneurs, but the reality is like, it doesn't work like that.
The meritocracy is not, not how, at least from my, the way I see the world, it's not how it actually works. Networks are important. Your ability to connect into charm is important. Hopefully I think I have incredible luck with the only talent I'm quite sure I have, which is if there's anyone in the world I wanna talk to, I'll get to them.
FC: Ha.
Ha
NG: And then like, okay, it's up to me to convince them, but to get to them, I can. And I think, that's a good talent to have.
Look, I mean, in the end of the day, like the funds that I wanted to back us up did, right. Um, but I think there is, there is a lot in the, there are a lot in the gaps.
I mean, ideally, if you are not a resource heavy type of business, I think people should make sure that their business just doesn't need funding. And if it comes, that's really nice. But I mean, make sure that you can stand on your own feet as quickly as you possibly can.
FC: And we'll dive into that in a second. Just moving to sort of the future outlook. So if you look forward in the next six to 12 months, what's keeping you up at night?
NG: I sleep very well because I need to be, wake up and be focused. So I make sure I sleep.
FC: Good first advice? Yes. Sleep.
NG: Yeah, I mean, like, don't be a tired wreck because no one's gonna wanna do anything with you. That's kind of like, just don't do it. But the things that, you know, top of mind, right? And team. We're adding some key hires now, and as I mentioned before, like no mistakes are allowed to be made here. So, so that's first.
We're opening two new geos, and that requires high focus and high sensitivity to details. I'm very much looking forward to the learning and I hope it doesn't, it's not too painful.
And then I think an ability to maintain, emotional cohesiveness and safeness for the team in a way that, it remains an amazing place to work in. And that collaboration is incredibly high and people come up and talk about tensions and problems, so we know what to solve, making sure that, that as we grow, we can maintain truth telling culture, is top of mind for me.
New people. Deliberate growth. Truth telling culture. And obviously like super happy kids and families.
FC: Yes, of course. Of
course.
NG: that, that, that learn and do amazingly well.
FC: You've already shared a lot of advice, but is there anything else that you would share, to other EdTech founders that are, you know, just starting up based on your experience?
NG: I have several. I think one is if you don't, absolutely have to do it, don't.
FC: Ooh, okay. In what sense?
NG: Every sense. It's like not a pleasant experience. If you have any other option, do the other option.
FC: I'll,
I'll put that as the tagline of this podcast.
NG: The world doesn't need more stuff unless they're absolutely necessary.
FC: Hmm.
NG: Your life doesn't need entrepreneurship unless it's absolutely necessary. Like maintain your friends, go party, have close family relationships, get a salary that's real nice. Don't underestimate these things.
FC: But you're also alluding to you know, solve a proper pain point. Is that also what you mean in, in addition to sort of your personal self?
NG: Yeah, like build things that the world absolutely needs and that you are the absolute person to build. Like if in any other way, please don't do it just like Nike, but the opposite, just don't do it. That's a first.
FC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's a good one. Mm-Hmm.
NG: the second is,
I mean, your job is to make sure that the best people are solving the problems to be solved. And if you do your job well, you're the dumbest person in the room.
It is incredibly hard in the start because no one wants to work for like no money and like an idea and insecurity. And so you'll have to understand and recognize what are your levers, and how do you get those people. And that's hard. But I think that's a main focus.
Don't spend your time with time wasters. If you come to a meeting and you have this little in the bottom of your belly saying, what am I gonna get from this conversation? Get up and leave. Time is the only thing you actually have. So be very stingy about it and be incredibly picky with what you do with it.
And work only with people you actually enjoy. Like you're going to meet them all the time. Just don't, don't include unpleasant human beings in your anything. Even if they are, they have the titles or they have the power or they have the, all the things.
NG: This is another thing no one talks about. Like, sometimes you just don't have another option. And if that's the case, well, sorry for you. And I can say sorry for me too, right? Like, I've had to do a lot of things I wish I didn't, but like just, you know, part of the eating sand, um, experience. But, but really try and be if you can, pick them, like prioritize just great humans.
And the last one, maybe if you want another; meet and talk to the customers and listen to them and not only customers or whatever. Kids and, and your team try and like, don't build companies like old school. We're not building armies. We're building collaborative spaces. Just don't do the hierarchy thing. It's weird. Talk to people and make sure that they feel safe enough to tell you the truth.
